Hi Terry. Today I am reading your posts of this 11-year old topic (which I found by doing a search on certain words) and I am impressed by what you wrote in this topic. I am especially impressed by your first post of this topic. You make an excellent point of saying that the WT's (and governing body's) doctrine of the faithful and discreet slave (at least of the core element of it) can be traced to an idea of Maria Russell (and to promotion of that idea by her). [Or, perhaps others associated with the Watchtower thought it up first, but she heavily promoted it, at least according the Proclaimer's book (If I recall correctly what it said about it).]
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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How the Good work of Russell became the curse of the Watchtower today
by Terry inthe greatest benefit to come from jehovah's witnesses was the introduction of honest investigation into the.
claims of christianity based on the bible.. exposing error was the gimmick.. replacing doctrine or ritual with door to door activity was the greatest failure to follow truth where it leads.. .
mainstream religion in pastor russell's day was set in stone.
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Disillusioned JW
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my post where I wrote "Year later he began ..." I meant to write 'Years later he began ...".
More info: A publisher of Bob Avakian's book (Avakian might be owner of the publisher) lists a book by Ardea Skybreak called THE SCIENCE OF EVOLUTION AND THE MYTH OF CREATIONISM: KNOWING WHAT’S REAL AND WHY IT MATTERS. I think it is probably an excellent book. Regarding Ardea the publisher says the following. "Ardea Skybreak is a scientist with professional training in ecology and evolutionary biology. She is a follower of Bob Avakian and an advocate of the New Communism which he has developed. ... From a very early age, she was encouraged to become a critical thinker and systematically trained as an intellectual with a wide and diverse range of interests and passions in a great many spheres of both arts and sciences. Skybreak has had a lifelong commitment to demystifying and broadly popularizing evidence-based science and the scientific method. ... In Skybreak’s view, the fact that large parts of humanity have been deprived of a scientific understanding and approach is a problem that is being further compounded in today’s world by the widespread politically motivated attacks on science. She argues that actively combating anti-science, and promoting the consistent application and broad popularization of the scientific method, is essential if we are to find the ways to interact appropriately with the whole of the natural world, and to radically reorganize human societies in keeping with the objective interests of all of humanity."
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
peacefulpete, you made a great post! It is too bad that months ago I ceased being permitted on this site to mark posts "Like". [Nor, can I any longer mark any as "Dislike".]
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
It is true that atheism is a core component of modern-day communism (at least the kind based upon the writings of the Karl Marx's, such as in his and Engel's Communist Manifesto), but atheism is one idea which communism got 100% correct!
I have read some communist literature (including the Communist Manifesto) and by far the best (to me) communist literature I have ever read is the book called AWAY WITH ALL GODS! - Unchaining the Mind and Radically Changing the World, By Bob Avakian. That book is so great I bought a used copy of it. There is very much truth in that book. [I either found that book at a local thrift store or at a book sale by the local friends of the local public library.]
By the way, according the Encyclopedia Britannica both of Karl Marx's parents were Jewish. The dad who was "a successful lawyer, was a man of the Enlightenment, devoted to Kant and Voltaire" and he converted to Christianity probably in order to keep his professional career. [See https://www.britannica.com/biography/Karl-Marx .] Karl Marx at the age of six years old became baptized as Christian. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Karl Marx's "Jewish background exposed him to prejudice and discrimination that may have led him to question the role of religion in society and contributed to his desire for social change." Year later he began reading about the ideas of Hegel and eventually Karl Marx became and atheist.
The Britannica article says that Karl Marx learned of "... Bruno Bauer, a young lecturer in theology, who was developing the idea that the Christian Gospels were a record not of history but of human fantasies arising from emotional needs and that Jesus had not been a historical person. Marx enrolled in a course of lectures given by Bauer on the prophet Isaiah. Bauer taught that a new social catastrophe “more tremendous” than that of the advent of Christianity was in the making. The Young Hegelians began moving rapidly toward atheism and also talked vaguely of political action."
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After leaving the JWs
by punkofnice inhow do i view the world after leaving the jws?.
1. most politicians are disgusting filth.
political parties are disgusting filth.
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Disillusioned JW
Though many people, books, and web pages say it is "natural to humans to worship", such is not the case for me, at least not for invisible entities that I have no experience with. I've never seen, heard, felt, smelt, or had any other sensory experience of a god/God or spirit (nor have I detected any action which I consider to have been done by such), and thus it is not natural for me to worship such. When was a young child I had to be told (both by the WT literature, kingdom hall talks, and by my mother) to pray to Jehovah God at bedtime, during the start of every meal I have, to listen to prayers at WT/JW meetings (and I was conditioned to say Amen to prayers said out loud by other at such meetings), but I didn't like doing it. When I was a child I asked my mother why I have to pray. I wondered was the point and value of doing such so often. I wanted to not be required to pray to someone who newer communicated to me in any way I could discern at all. But, I continued to pray in all of those settings at least into my thirties (except maybe at bedtimes). During the last two years, or so, that I was assigned to pray out loud at the kingdom hall, I was thinking I wish I didn't have that assignment. That is because by then I had completely stopped believing that prayers in our modern times are ever answered by Jehovah God (even though I was still a ministerial servant at the time I was giving the public prayers).
If it wasn't for me being conditioned and trained and told to worship Jehovah, I never would have worshipped him and I still wouldn't have worshipped some other god-concept. either. Yes there were times when I prayed in hopes of getting help from Jehovah, but I would never had done such if I hadn't be told for years that I had to pray. If I hadn't been told over and over to believe in Jehovah (and in supernaturalism in general, namely Jesus, Satan, angels, and demons and in alleged actions by them) I would not have believe din him (and them) after age 8 and perhaps I never would have believed in him (and them) - just as I never believed in Santa Claus, supernatural vampires, witchcraft (of kind was said to be without the help of Satan and/or demons), etc. Now a days, to me the idea of becoming an atheist as young child was a natural birth right which was taken away from me by the religious culture (especially in my case, taken away me from the influence of the WT through my parents and directly upon me). As a baby I was born without belief in God (or gods) and thus I was born as an atheist (in the sense of having total nonbelief in God/god), and I if I hadn't been raised to believe in Jehovah God I would never ever had believed in any God/god. Atheism was my natural birthright, a precious gift from nature.
Yet because I had become so immersed in religion, due to the WT/JW religion's influence, it is hard for me to now completely stop studying religion (even WT literature). Now my studying of religion is solely as an intellectual exercise (to see what I can learn and put to use, such as to find evidence to tell to others that there is nothing supernatural). But I don't worship any more.
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Are Jehovahs Witnesses a cult?
by GoverningBody inthis question has been presented many times throughout the years.
somewhat recently, there has been much talk surrounding the "bite method" :.
"bite” stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotional control.. some examples were thrown at me, such as the decisions of who we associate with, discouraging any worldy media, encouraging our brothers and sisters to report any of our misbehaviours to the elders, our rejection of criticism on the truth, shunning etc.. what do we think about this?.
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Disillusioned JW
I think the article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult gives a useful perspective of ideas of what cults are, including what sociologists consider to be the types of groups that are cults. None of the sociological books which I have found (nearly all of which are college textbooks) which have a discussion of the topic of cults ever listed the Jehovah's Witnesses as a cult. Since sociologists are scientists (and since I highly value science and what scientists say of science) and since cults are a part of what their branch of science study, I thus think their view and definition of what a cult is is very important - much more important than the definition of modern human popular culture (and of the Christian apologetic literature [such as the book called Kingdom of the Cults] which label groups they disagree with as cults).
From time to time I have had a hard time deciding if the WT/JW religious sect is a cult. I never (thus far) considered it a cult, but sometimes I have wondered if it is a cult. I currently believe it is nearly a cult, especially after the governing body of the JWs began teaching that the faithful and discreet slave is exclusively them. Before I was baptized as a JW (and thus before age 18) I read an article by the WT Society which said the JW religion is not a cult and which stated some reasons for that view. I thought about what it said and I thought about my knowledge of religious groups which to me were/are definitely cults. I was thinking about this during the time I was trying to decide if the JW religion really was the true religion and if I should get baptized into it. [Or, maybe I read the article after I became baptized; I am not sure when but it think it was probably before I became baptized.] I concluded that the JW religion is not a cult, but if I had concluded it was a cult I would not have got baptized as JW for I did not want to ever join a cult.
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An upcoming Watchtower article saying if people Pioneer Jehovah will provide!
by LongHairGal ini saw the post on reddit and the thread got many responses..can anybody believe the religion is still saying this??
it has to be as plain as day that so many jws are poor and struggling today because they never got a career or decent job years ago.. sadly, there are still witnesses who believe money will fall from heaven if they are in the full-time ministry.
they expect some miracle to occur..but, we all know the truth: people in the congregation will be hit up for yet more money for another bunch of irresponsible people pursuing poverty.
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Disillusioned JW
The Bible is an enabler for the WT religion! That should tell you JW lurkers something about the Bible. When the WT makes statements saying Jehovah will provide for his people and when the WT quotes something from the Bible for support, they are oftentimes applying the Bible verses properly. The Bible actually does say that Yahweh/Jehovah/the LORD will provide for those who serve him. So JW lurkers, ask yourselves if something is wrong with some of the teachings of Bible.
Many of faithful Jews who went to Nazi concentration camps also began to realize that maybe something was wrong with the Hebrew Holy Scriptures (OT Bible) and that maybe their God (the LORD/YHWH) doesn't exist or doesn't care for them.
Think about these things JWs.
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Disillusioned JW
Update to my prior post: According to the account, in regards to the last chief who approached Elijah, his king was killed by Jehovah (though not by means of fire being sent down from heaven), or perhaps Jehovah merely chose not to heal the king from his great fall through the grating of his roof chamber - 2 Kings 1:16-17 and 1:2-8.
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Disillusioned JW
Thanks TD, those are excellent points and clarifications you made. You are right about me being "familiar with the sexual escapades of Oholah and Oholibah (Samaria and Israel respectively) in Ezekiel". I vaguely had those examples mind, as well as having others in mind, when I wrote the following. "... I know that the Bible (in words attributed to Yahweh) sometimes figuratively described worship of other gods as acts of fornication (in a spiritual sense) and I think some prophetic books of the OT Bible sometimes referred to the nations of Israel and/or other nations as prostitutes".
I moment ago I opened up the 1963 large print edition (Student's Edition) of NWT at random and read a passage therein at random. It was the one about a mother and a prostitute who had each given birth to a son, and in which the prostitute's son died. The two women claimed the same living son as theirs, etc. I'm sure you remember that story. That story is appalling in regards to the prostitute saying to cut the baby boy in half, but it was very loving that the mother of the son said to keep the boy alive, saying to give it to the other woman instead of killing the boy. Whether the story is a real story or not, it is true in the sense of accurately reflecting the cultural views and values (and human nature) of the ancient Jews. What it depicts of many of the Jews is appalling.
I then randomly flipped to another page in the Bible and I read a portion of a story of chiefs accompanied by 50 men taking turns approaching Elijah and appealing to him. In response Elijah called down fire from Jehovah upon those men, and the fire came down and killed them, except for the last group that approached Elijah. The passage said the deaths were due the men being sent "to inquire of Ba'al-ze'bub the god of Ek'ron" (see 2 Kings chapter one). That story of brutally by God (and by a request to God by a prophet of God) is appalling to me.
The OT portion of the Bible has so many abhorrent passages of people (Jew and non-Jew) deliberately causing harm, even death, to other humans - as well as Jehovah doing such to Jew and non-Jew. The idea of people being killed for worshiping a god other than Jehovah, or engaging in some other kind of religion (one deemed false by some worshipers of Jehovah), is something totally against the values that are stated in the first amendment of the USA Constitution.
The framers of that amendment learned from the history of Europeans having numerous wars with each other about each other's religions. They also learned from the history of wars between Christians and Muslims over the matter of religion. Furthermore, they also learned from the history of persecutions of various sects withing individual nations, and even within some of the British colonies in America. The framers of the 1st Amendment to the USA Constitution were much more enlightened than the ancient writers of the OT Bible and than many of the other peoples who were living in ancient biblical times.
The framers of the amendment guaranteed freedom of religion (even of deism), with those rights being extended to all branches and sects of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and to all other religions. As result in our day people can worship any god (or goddess, or spirit, or human) they imagine (provided their practice doesn't harm other people). They can worship Baal if they want, or Zeus, or Ishtar, or even Satan if they want. In modern times the amendment is also interpreted to mean that people have the freedom to have no religion and to not worship at all. The vast majority of people in our time in the USA do not kill or violently attack each other over the practice (or non-practice) of religion - and the people of the USA are not being attacked by Jehovah God. We (not just people in the USA and most other countries, but even in Islamic nations) are so much more tolerant, so much more liberal, of people's religious practices, than the Bible portrays the ancient Israelites and Jews (and Jehovah) as being.
The USA (and many other countries with similar laws guaranteeing freedom of religion) are thriving. Many of the values of the OT Bible are outdated and now recognized by many as being wrong. Human society today is so much more liberal/tolerant and hence so much more civil (and so much less barbaric, though the weapons of today are far more dangerous) and so much better, than that which existed in biblical times.
There will be no battle of Armageddon in the biblical sense - no mass slaughter of people by Jehovah God or Jesus Christ or other alleged heavenly spirit beings. The WT and JWs are wrong in teaching there will be a battle of Armageddon and a destruction by God and Christ (and by JWs who claim to be the anointed of Jehovah to rule with Christ in heaven) of the human governments of the USA and of all other human governments, and of people who practice what the WT calls false religion. Much of what the Bible teaches as good and right is actually very bad.
I need to somehow kick the habit of reading religious literature (both WT literature and other religious literature). I wish I hadn't been raised as a JW or even as a Christian in general, except for being taught most of the basic teachings on morals and ethics.
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Disillusioned JW
I found online a brief article by a non-JW Christian with degrees in religion, biblical studies, and theology who has written a book which reviews the 2013 NWT and the web page gives a link to his book. [The article promotes his book and his book is called REVIEWING 2013 New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses: Examining the History of the Watchtower Translation and the Latest Revision. He says he is the "Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version".] For a non-JW author of numerous Christian books and articles he says surprisingly good things about the 2013 NWT and of the JW religion, but he also says two things about the NWT which weaken my temptation to obtain a copy of the 2013 NWT. The following are some of the things he says at https://christianpublishinghouse.co/2016/11/08/review-of-2013-revision-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses-new-world-translation/ (the boldface is mine).
"The 2013 New World Translation (NWT) is nothing like the 1984 New World Translation Reference Bible. Yes, the same theological bias exists. However, setting aside the theologically biased verses (e.g., according to Orthodoxy John 1:1, 8:58, Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13 to mention just a few), 2013 is a more accurate translation by far in comparison to the 1984 edition. However, 2013 is a dynamic equivalent (interpretative) translation like the New Revised Standard Version or the New International Version, even on the levels of the Today’s English Version at times, while the 1984 NWT reference Bible was more literal by far and written on an 11th-12th-grade level. The 2013 NWT is written on a 6th-7th-grade level.
The 2013 year of the Jehovah’s Witnesses was the biggest since 1914. While they made many doctrinal adjustments in 2013, it is their 2013 revision of their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures that was most shocking, to both Witnesses and non-Witnesses alike.
... This review is unbiased, frank, and very honest. Most Christians see the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a cult, which they are not. David Koresh, Charles Manson, Jim Jones and Jonestown, these were cults. Anything one can blame the Jehovah’s Witnesses for, so-called orthodox Christians have done as well, even more so in many cases, be it setting false dates, theological bias in translation, costing Christians their lives because of false beliefs, believing that they are the one true religion, mind control, and being biblically wrong. ... In my studies of their history, their translations, I can say, if you set aside the handful of theologically biased verses, the 2013 NWT is not much different than the NIV. Moreover, their study notes (original language terms, Bible background, historical setting, archaeology, textual issues), are actually very good."